"Include in Sync" option

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zeppo

16 Jan, 2018 03:50 PM

If I were to uncheck the "Include in Sync" option for a group, does that in effect turn off the sync for all notes that are contained in subgroups within it? Or does it only affect loose notes within the group that is unchecked?

  1. Support Staff 1 Posted by drewmccormack on 17 Jan, 2018 08:06 AM

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    It unchecked all the subfolders too. There are no loose notes in a group. A group can't hold notes, only a stack can.

    Kind regards,
    Drew

  2. drewmccormack closed this discussion on 17 Jan, 2018 08:06 AM.

  3. zeppo re-opened this discussion on 18 Jan, 2018 11:17 PM

  4. 2 Posted by zeppo on 18 Jan, 2018 11:17 PM

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    I should have said stacks, not loose notes. My eyes didn't pick up on the difference in the icons. You might consider making the stack icons a different color by the way.

    I'm getting 30 minute+ sync times whenever I add new notes, even if it is just a few being added. These are being added but without turning on their scheduling yet. The number added doesn't seem to matter. So I'm guessing its having tor re-store or sort or whatever ALL the notes instead of just adding the new data. Without adding notes it can still be pretty long, like 8 to 10 minutes. So perhaps I'll try your suggestion, and splitting my syncs into two groups.. But then perhaps I may just be subjecting myself to twice the probability that something will go wrong.

    This is with the iOS app I'm talking about. The mac app will be longer as well, but over time, testing the difference between studying on the mac and studying on the iPhone, the mac app may take 30 seconds where the iPhone 6 takes 10 minutes. Its a big disparity, and makes me wonder if whoever did the coding for your mac app has a better handle on things. I at least wish that were the case because then maybe there would be some hope down the line for iOS app sync improvement.

  5. Support Staff 3 Posted by drewmccormack on 19 Jan, 2018 07:10 AM

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    I did the coding on both, and it is the same code. iOS devices are much slower for general processing than Macs, which explains the difference.

    It is a very long time. I would expect that if you let the sync complete fully, without using the app but leaving it running, that it would then become fast again. It is probably doing a clean up of some sort.

    If you like, you could try a reset of the cloud data. Press “Reset” button on each device, waiting for the message to appear about resetting other devices. Then start the sync again.

    But it sounds like you do have a lot of data. Processing that data is going to take time. Splitting the data into synced and unsynced could be an option.

    Drew

  6. 4 Posted by zeppo on 19 Jan, 2018 03:29 PM

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    I always leave it running until the progress bar stops and don't use the phone for anything else. When it stops, I turn the app off and wait a couple of minutes and then turn it back on and see if it wants to sync again, and if it does I let that finish. And I repeat if necessary until it doesn't want to sync. I baby it. Only then will I sync the mac app. Once the mac app has synced to match, I click the sync button to see if it has any more syncing it wants to do and if not, I then turn the iphone on and sync it again, which it may want to do for a brief time.

     I've also gotten into the habit now of turning off the wifi on the phone until I'm sure the mac app has synced to the same scheduling. If something doesn't go right there I can back up the iphone, wipe the mac data, and then reset the cloud. I might have to do that every couple of months.

    I keep stacks loaded and included in the sync that I haven't added to scheduling yet. When I'm ready to study them and turn on scheduling, it initially have an impact on the sync time. It may be my imagination, but it seems like the sync time will slow down more after the first two days after I turn on scheduling, as if there is a significant change in sync time after it has had a day two study each facet. But that must be coincidence. But what does seem to be sure is that adding 40 existing cards to scheduling doesn't have them impact on sync time that uploading even just a few new cards ( without scheduling for them turned on). Seems like whether I add 4 cards or 40, the impact on sync time is going to be relatively the same and I have to expect a sync time of 25 to 40 minutes.

    I have turned off cellular for the Studies app because if I assume it will try to use it to sync with, I don't want it to botch a sync due to loss of cell signal in the middle of a sync. The beauty of the app is I can study anytime I would otherwise be killing time just standing in line somewhere or waiting for a stop light, and I was having the pop up that the iphone sync was shut down happen more often when I had cellular turned on-- most often while I was driving-- which I assume would be lost due to loss of signal in the middle of a sync.

    I have a lot of notes, about 9000, but they are strictly text, except for some that have audio from back when the app used to be allowed to upload cards with audio from Flashcard Exchange/Cram. So people using the app with a lot fewer notes but use a lot of photos or more audio will have more data than me. I try to manage the number of cards that I have scheduled for study to around 130 to 180, and will add more cards to schedule if a few days of scheduling below this range occur.

  7. Support Staff 5 Posted by drewmccormack on 19 Jan, 2018 03:37 PM

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    It seems very long, even for 9000 notes. I have a test set that I use with about 10000 notes and a lot of images, and I don’t think it is that long. The first time it syncs after turning on the switch might take 10-20 mins, because it has to upload the data, and merge it all, but after that it should be quite fast. Adding a few notes should be done in a few seconds in most cases.

    So I don’t know what could be going on. Maybe I should make you a special build with logging, so we can see what is going on. Very odd.

    Drew

  8. 6 Posted by zeppo on 19 Jan, 2018 05:37 PM

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    Coincidentally, the mac app didn't sync to the same scheduling as the iPhone app today and I will have to clear the mac data and reset the cloud. When this happens it will usually be a case where I completed the days scheduled notes on the iPhone, but because it was at the end of the day and approaching midnight, I didn't open and sync the mac data yesterday, because of the risk the sync would continue past midnight and then the next day's (today's) scheduling would occur in the middle of a sync. Over time, I've found its better to avoid that conflict. Instead, I'll wait and let the iPhone schedule the cards for the new day, and then sync the mac app before doing any studying. Actually, I don't like going a day without syncing the mac to the completed days study on the iphone because if I skip a day or two without syncing the mac app, it seems to very much increase the likelihood of a problem.

    I've wondered if it is possible to have some kind of malicious bug at the icloud account level, but I don't know how I could determine that, and I've never had any trouble with anything else stored on the cloud, though I don't use it for much.

  9. 7 Posted by zeppo on 19 Jan, 2018 05:59 PM

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    PS, this very thing happened with today's attempt to sync the mac app, which I didn't have the chance to do yesterday. Yet today the iphone scheduled 155 notes and when I synced the mac, it has 190 scheduled. So my routine is now to move the delete the mac library, reset the cloud, and sync/upload the iphone first before the mac. I end up having to do this about ever 6-8 weeks if things are going well.

  10. Support Staff 8 Posted by drewmccormack on 19 Jan, 2018 06:05 PM

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    You can get different due, that is true, but it should end up syncing. Should not generally need a reset.

    Kind regards,
    Drew

  11. 9 Posted by zeppo on 19 Jan, 2018 07:33 PM

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    Unfortunately, what usually happens in those situations is the mac wins, and the inaccurate 190 due would be synced to the iPhone, rather than the 150 being synced to the mac.

  12. Support Staff 10 Posted by drewmccormack on 19 Jan, 2018 08:36 PM

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    Yeah, but I think the important thing is just that the same number ends up on the iPhone and Mac. There is not really a “correct” answer.

    Drew

  13. 11 Posted by zeppo on 20 Jan, 2018 12:41 AM

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    "Correct" for me is the number of notes due to be studied that day determined by applying the algorithm to my study history. Since the iPhone certainly has the accurate, most up to date study history, and then I want the algorithm applied to it, and not whatever this other figure the mac app comes up with, presumably by applying the same algorithm to an inaccurate (and/or not current) study history. Unless you have applied different algorithm to the mac and ips apps.

    By the way, when I opened the mac app today after having deleted the library, it gave me the option of automatically syncing newly created stacks. I decided not to select this option this time. I'll activate sync on the new stacks I create only after having studied all due notes and synced up both apps for the day. That will allow me to see how much of this long sync time is caused by new stacks verses updating the study history.

  14. Support Staff 12 Posted by drewmccormack on 20 Jan, 2018 08:19 AM

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    The reason they probably differ is that the Mac doesn’t yet know about the new study you did on the iPhone. So there are more notes due. But after syncing, but number should drop as it sees you studied things on the iPhone.

    Kind regards,
    Drew

  15. 13 Posted by zeppo on 20 Jan, 2018 05:15 PM

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    I wasn't clear. I had already synced the iPhone to the cloud with 155. So the Mac should have synced to 155, but it didn't. I could go back and try another sync with the iphone again, but when I have done this in these situations, the mac data always wins the battle. Problems like this that don't resolve occur for me ever 6 to 8 weeks. I could have backed up my iphone, first and attempted the sync, and if it didn't work reinstall the back up and use the cloud reset method, but I have just learned over time how unlikely it is that the phone data will be allowed to trump the mac data. The 190 was bound to show up on the phone, which was the wrong scheduling that apparently hadn't registered the completion of the part of the previous days' study.

  16. Support Staff 14 Posted by drewmccormack on 20 Jan, 2018 08:47 PM

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    It doesn’t sound like anything is really wrong there. The
    iPhone does a scheduling. The Mac gets the new sync data, and does a rescheduling with the new info. This can cause other combinations to become due. It’s not a question of the Mac winning, it is that the Mac has does a scheduling with newer info, and that info goes back to the iPhone. What is important is that the two end with the same number of due when synced up properly.

    Kind regards,
    Drew

  17. 15 Posted by zeppo on 21 Jan, 2018 03:55 AM

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    No, the mac doesn't have newer info. It has older info and is maintaining cards due that I have already studied on the iphone, when it should grab the iphone data and show them as studied. In these cases, the older information on the mac overrides what is on the iphone. You may not think that should happen, but that is what happens. I've seen it time and time again. There's no mystery to it. I've had plenty of data to verify it . If I have a note come due that I'm haven't had to study in months and I grade it as correct when i study it on the iphone, then why would I be studying it immediately again on the mac. I wouldn't. It would schedule it for months away. And NO, it is not the reverse side being flipped. I know whats going on. The record of the iphone studying, or a portion of it (ie, whatever was done since the last sync is getting discarded as if it never occurred in favor of the mac data, which still says that it never occurred. In these cases, if I don't discard the mac library and reset the cloud , etc, then sometimes I would have to repeat and entire day's worth of study . I've had it happen many times, and certainly enough to know that the mac is making me repeat scheduled cards that I've already studied on the iphone.
    In fact. sometimes it will still have the option to continue the session from the previous day's notes still there as if I never finished it. So when that happens I just try to whip through the cards remembering how I graded them and applying the same grades again, without studying them and giving them new grades. Otherwise, my grading from the first session would have been lost and my new grades would be based on having just seen the cards a day earlier rather than months earlier, and would misrepresent my ability to remember them after months have passed.

    I study on the iphone and finish that days due notes. The next morning I sync the iphone and let is schedule. Then I sync the mac before I do any studying that day. I'm not studying some of that day's due notes and then syncing the mac for the first time. Scheduling only occurs once a day.

  18. Support Staff 16 Posted by drewmccormack on 21 Jan, 2018 12:02 PM

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    It doesn’t work how you think it does. Study history is always merged. If you study on the iPhone, and the Mac, the two study events are both kept and used in scheduling. So data is never thrown away or ignored.

    What I think is probably happening is that the iPhone data is not making it into the Mac for whatever reason. In that case, indeed, the Mac doesn’t know about the study event on the iPhone. It is not ignoring the iPhone, or overriding it, it just doesn’t yet know about it. Normally, if this were the case, and the iPhone data turned up later, the two would be merged, and the note should again become undue.

    In any case, I understand what you are seeing, and would prefer it didn’t happen, but sometimes there is a lot of data to be moved and it just doesn’t happen in time.

    Drew

  19. 17 Posted by zeppo on 21 Jan, 2018 03:59 PM

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    "What I think is probably happening is that the iPhone data is not making it into the Mac for whatever reason. "

    -- Yes. That is my point. When I say the iMac wins, I'm saying for some reason the cloud (I presume) sees, erroneously, the mac as having the more current data than what has already been uploaded by the iphone. Well, there I am presuming that that the iphone data has been uploaded to the cloud because when I manually click on Sync Now, it doesn't react any further, as if acknowledging that everything has been uploaded and no further sync is necessary. In this case, I KNOW that what has been, or should have been, uploaded to the cloud by the iphone is the most current data, and that the data on the mac is not more current, because I haven't done any studying on the mac (typically I may go weeks without using the mac for studying). So, ok, by what you have said, the information from the iphone has not made it to the cloud, even though taking action to sync phone would indicate it has. Or, some flaw is taking place where what has been uploaded by the cloud is being ignored, thereby allowing the mac to be seen as having more current data, loading that to the cloud. Whatever the problem is, my study history on the iphone is being lost forever. It doesn't sync up later and fix things no matter how many syncs I give it. What has been uploaded by the mac is transferred with the next sync to the iphone, including having to repeat a full day's study of all due notes, and no correction takes place. When I say the mac wins, I appreciate your trying to make a distinction in what is really happening. I'm just using "wins" as a figure of speech, without full regard to detailed reason behind it which is unknown to me.

    It seems to me that the iphone data IS making it to the cloud, but somehow the date that tells the cloud how current the data is on the mac, which should tell it that it is a day or two older (to help it distinguish that the cards the mac says have not been studied, have been studied) is being overridden some how. My guess would be that a sync of the mac gets interrupted early on, so that no data was uploaded, but the timestamp from that failed sync attempt has overridden the timestamps that show how current the data on the mac is . So where the timestamps should show the data to be a one or two days old, now when the sync is tried again after the failure, the timestamp was changed during the last failed sync, but the data is still the old day old data. But going by the erroneous timestamps, the mac data is now considered more current than what is currently on the cloud (as uploaded by the iphone), and in the merge process, that "more current" data is kept. But this is all my speculation on how I presume a merge would logically occur (with date/timestamps determining which data is more current, that which is already on the cloud or that which is on the device).

    " Normally, if this were the case, and the iPhone data turned up later, the two would be merged, and the note should again become undue."

    This of course, is the same as if it never merged. It does me no good, zero, to have the iphone data turn up later after I have already had to "restudy" the notes. In fact, it would just exacerbate the problem at that point.

    At any rate, as I have said in the past, I have learned to "baby" the app in different ways in order to reduce the frequency of this problem, so that it now happens every 6 to 8 weeks and I just deal with it with the same protocol. This includes trying my best to never interrupt a sync, even though they may take 20-40 minutes (typically I'll turn on the phone app to start a days scheduling and sync when I happen to awaken in the middle of the night, then in the morning sync the mac). I've learned to turn off wifi and cell connection if I'm using the app away from home so that it won't try to start a sync on a signal that may be lost while still in the process. And I try my best to study all due notes for a day within that same day and not let them lapse to the next day, and after doing so, sync the mac that same day as well. If I'm not able to do this, the odds of failure increase, though most of the time things will work out. But I dare not go two days without syncing. That almost always leads to the pop up telling me that icloud sync has been shut down by the app or cloud or whatever is responsible. I try not to have the mac be in the sync process while midnight approaches, because if scheduling tries to take place during a sync, I have found problems more likely to arise.

    Bottom line is though that I like the app and am willing to do this. Sync has improved to where I can at least use the app now, whereas I went more than a year without adding any new notes at one point because the sync would not work more than a couple of days for me. It may be a case of teaching an old dog new tricks, but I've tried a number of other apps and have not been able to get used to the differences.

  20. Support Staff 18 Posted by drewmccormack on 21 Jan, 2018 04:21 PM

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    I understand everything you are saying. Not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that the way I developed the scheduling, no study event is ever removed, or overwritten, by sync or anything else.

    You might be able to see this. Ie. you can see how many times you have studied a particular note in the info panel. If you studied it twice, my guess is that you would indeed see both studies counted. The count would go up by 2.

    The timestamps used in scheduling are the actual time you click correct/incorrect for a given note. So if the due notes are wrong, it is probably that something goes wrong uploading the sync data, or downloading it on the Mac, not ordering of study events. I would expect that to work.

    Anyway, it is good you have found strategies to work for you. It is disappointing to know that a sync takes 20 mins. That sounds very extreme. A short sync should really only be a few seconds, and a clean up sync could take longer, but 20 minutes sounds long. (I guess iOS would take longer.)

    Drew

  21. 19 Posted by zeppo on 21 Jan, 2018 05:07 PM

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    "You might be able to see this. Ie. you can see how many times you have studied a particular note in the info panel. If you studied it twice, my guess is that you would indeed see both studies counted. The count would go up by 2."

    The next time this happens, if I don't have too high a number of cards to restudy as a result, I will take note of the times studied on some cards on the mac and then on the iphone. Ie, I study all due on the phone app, sync to cloud, then sync the mac and the mac doesn't register the study I did on the iphone. In that case, the mac app should show 1 less study occurence on each card than on the iphone. When that happens I'll take note of the cards prior to syncing again. After syncing again, when the mac scheduling is transferred to the phone and I am forced to restudy that days notes again, I'll check to see if the number of study occurrences has been reduced by one on the iphone so that it matches what was on the mac prior to the sync, or vice-versa ( albeit I'm still stuck restudying that day's due notes again regardless.)

    I may take you up on that special build if it could solve this problem. Or is there an app out there designed to help me determine if my icloud storage and sync is screwed up on Apple's end?

  22. Support Staff 20 Posted by drewmccormack on 21 Jan, 2018 05:24 PM

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    There isn’t really anything you could check at Apple that would help much. The sync logic is all in Studies.

    Kind regards,
    Drew

  23. 21 Posted by zeppo on 25 Feb, 2018 12:11 AM

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    Syncing continues to be 30 to 45 minutes, and it doesn't matter whether I do it via wifi with cellular turned off, or via cellular with wifi turned off.
    If I send you a copy of my library file can you test it, or is that file have to be used with my device (iphone 6) and/or icloud account?
    this has been going on for years.
    It is particularly bad if I create new cards or edit old ones, even if it is just a few.  Instead of 30 it will take 45 to 50 minutes.Even the mac app is taking longer these days.

        On Sunday, January 21, 2018, 12:24:35 PM EST, drewmccormack <[email blocked]> wrote:
     
       
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