"Include in Sync" option

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16 Jan, 2018 03:50 PM

If I were to uncheck the "Include in Sync" option for a group, does that in effect turn off the sync for all notes that are contained in subgroups within it? Or does it only affect loose notes within the group that is unchecked?

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  1. Support Staff 31 Posted by drewmccormack on 13 Mar, 2018 04:54 PM

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    Think it was closer to 45mins for me, but I have a iPhone 7, which is no doubt at least twice as fast as a 6.

  2. 32 Posted by zeppo on 15 Mar, 2018 04:41 PM

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    So far it appears to have solved the worst of the problem. Syncs of a few minutes when iphone adds the new day's due notes and syncs, and with follow up sync on iphone after mac app syncs. The longest time is still after editing notes on mac and then syncing. I just added a character to about 12 cards on the mac and synced to cloud to see what would happen. Then I synced the iphone. This sync took the longest, as it always had, but this time it was 5- 10 minutes. I took my eye off of it and missed when it actually stopped. But I'll see how it does when I actually do some real editing and card creation in the coming week.

    Unless this is something that a reset clears, but the problem causing the need for the reset still exists and will gradually build back up again causing longer and longer syncs forcing me to have to do resets on a regular basis, it appears that this is going to work. I sure hope so, as it has gone on for me ever since you dropped wifi sync for icloud. Fingers crossed, this would be a HUGE improvement.

  3. Support Staff 33 Posted by drewmccormack on 15 Mar, 2018 04:44 PM

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    Given I didn’t really actually change anything about the sync, I suspect what happened was just a build up of gunk over the years. I know there were bugs in the online store (CloudKit) at times, so maybe you got hit by them, and it never got cleared.

    The reset we have now is total. What we had before was probably missing those left overs from old issues.


  4. 34 Posted by zeppo on 15 Mar, 2018 04:57 PM

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    By "bugs" do you mean malicious, or just errors?

  5. Support Staff 35 Posted by drewmccormack on 15 Mar, 2018 05:33 PM

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    Just errors in Apple’s code. Since fixed, but your data could still suffer from the effects of it.

    Kind regards,

  6. 36 Posted by zeppo on 20 Mar, 2018 03:56 AM

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    Provided I don't edit or add new cards, syncs have been shorter, around 7-10 minutes. Once I do some more card edits or adds I'll see how that goes. But I'm curious that you say the app should attempt to sync every 10 cards or so, because i am clearly not seeing this. I had about 140 cards to study and sat down to study them all at once on the iphome. When I finished and closed the study session, but not the app, I noticed that no attempt to sync had been triggered, but I thought perhaps just closing the app mignt trigger a background sync (I don't know if the app does that or not), I put it aside for a while and then opened the mac app to sync, which it did, but it did not reflect any updates of what I had studied earlier. Yet, having spent arount 35 minutes studying on the iphone, you would think if it is syncing every 10 cards that at least half of the would have synced, if not almost all. Yet it wasn't showing this. The mac app acted as if there was nothing new on the cloud to grab. I then closed the mac app and opened the iphone app, and then it triggered as sync that took about 9 minutes Only then did the mac app sync to show all the cards had been studiied. So where is the syncing every 10 notes?

  7. Support Staff 37 Posted by drewmccormack on 20 Mar, 2018 07:56 AM

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    Ah, think I may have been confused. Looks like it syncs when you exit the slideshow. Would be no point syncing in your case, if it is taking 7 minutes, because a sync is “atomic”. That is, if you do something that changes the data while the sync is running, the next sync has to do all the stuff again.

    7 minutes still sounds long, but perhaps if you study 140 notes, it could indeed take that long on an iPhone 6. My iPhone 7 seems to be about twice as fast, and 3 minutes of syncing may be possible after studying a lot.


  8. 38 Posted by zeppo on 20 Mar, 2018 12:41 PM

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    Ok, well that makes sense from what I've experienced. I decided to turn off cellular sync for the app because I seemed more likcly to get sync "crashes" whenever I was away from home and wifi, ie, studying cards at long stop lights, or grocery line, etc. My guess is brief loss of cell signal was too easy to occur at some point in a long sync window. Then It got to where I decided to turn off wifi as well when using the app, but if the sync times stay at 7-10 minutes I can at least be a little more flexible with it.

    I'm interested in getting some more examples of what my sync time will be after editing or adding 20 notes. Hopefully I'm not looking at 30 minutes again. But my guess is it will be 15-20 minutes.

  9. Support Staff 39 Posted by drewmccormack on 20 Mar, 2018 01:01 PM

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    It would still surprise me if just adding a 20 notes changed so much. I can add 20 notes and have it sync in a few seconds usually. Even downloading 1000 notes from Quizlet will sync in about half a minute.

    Seems like something doesn’t scale very well with many notes. Possibly should investigate that. Because the actual sync data to upload is the same whether you have 10 notes or 10000. The difference would be in doing the accounting for the merges.


  10. 40 Posted by zeppo on 22 Mar, 2018 04:21 AM

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    Something is still wrong. I studied all due notes on the iphone, synced it to cloud (took a few minutes), then synced the mac app. Made sure had done all the syncing they wanted to do. Then I merely turned on the scheduling for the stack I named "C++ ADD 1" which has about 20 notes. Keep in mind, the stack itself had been loaded and synced with both apps long ago. All I did was turn on the scheduling, and study the new due notes [EDIT]. Then I started the sync at 11:17pm. Well, I figured it would take longer, but I didn't think it would take me past midnight. But that's what it did, which is a problem because then scheduling for the new day will attempt to take place while the sync is going on. I've learned to avoid this because it always seems to be problematic.

    Too late now, however. as it appears the initial sync took about 50 minutes and when glanced over at it, I saw that it had begun a second sync, presumably due to the new days notes being scheduled That sync is still ongoing as I type, and judging by the progress, will probably take another hour. I wish I had thought to save my library before I synced, as I could have just sent you that so you would have the same file on your end. But I can do it with another stack I have yet to schedule.

  11. Support Staff 41 Posted by drewmccormack on 22 Mar, 2018 08:40 AM

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    It’s possible that this is one of those scheduled clean up syncs I mentioned. They can happen occasionally. Let the sync complete, and see if after that everything returns to the shorter schedule. Hopefully.


  12. 42 Posted by zeppo on 22 Mar, 2018 02:30 PM

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    I don't suppose there is some way you can include some kind of indicator that a clean up sync is trying to take place so I know to let it wait until I'll have an hour and 20 minutes with an uninterrupted connection? It may have been coincidence, but it used to seem like turning on scheduling for more cards would actually be followed up with longer sync time a couple of days later. Happened enough for me to start noticing it, so I'll hold off on making any changes for a couple of days. Then later I can get you a copy of my library and test it again by turning on scheduling for another stack.

  13. 43 Posted by zeppo on 23 Mar, 2018 03:37 AM

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    By the way, I studied the due notes for the day on the iphone and then synced, which took a couple of minutes. Then I synced the mac app which took less than a minute. But when I followed up with a sync of the iphone again, that sync took 15 minutes, even though thate had been no change in data. I don't know if that indicates anything about what is going on.

  14. Support Staff 44 Posted by drewmccormack on 23 Mar, 2018 07:31 AM

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    Not really. When a device syncs, it changes data, and that can also trigger other small changes that are synced back again. Don’t know why it would take longer. Perhaps there was an invisible update of data such as the regression percentages.

  15. 45 Posted by zeppo on 23 Mar, 2018 02:56 PM

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    I kind of meant that more in the sense of, assuming there is a bug at fault, could this (that fact that the longer sync with a second sync of the iphone after the mac app syncs) offer an indication of where the bug is that is causing the longer syncs.

    This morning the iphone app took about 8 minutes to schedule and sync, and the mac app seconds to sync after that. I'll seen how they sync later today after I've studied the 135 due notes.

  16. drewmccormack closed this discussion on 26 Mar, 2018 06:17 AM.

  17. zeppo re-opened this discussion on 27 Mar, 2018 06:13 PM

  18. 46 Posted by zeppo on 27 Mar, 2018 06:13 PM

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    Another long sync today after studying all of the day's due notes-- an hour sync, followed by a half hour sync. I haven't edited or added any new notes since the previous extra long sync five days ago. If I assume that is one of your scheduled clean ups, then it is as good a time as any then to activate the scheduling for another set of notes, which I will due for the "C ADD 7" stack, and see if it is followed by another long sync. But I will do that later today when I can plan on being around for a couple of uninterrupted hours. If it is long, then it would seem to rule out this scheduled clean up as being responsible.

  19. 47 Posted by zeppo on 27 Mar, 2018 10:36 PM

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    Well, this time the activating the scheduling for the stack of 21 notes did not trigger an unusually long sync time, and then studying them did not trigger an unusually long sync time, The only thing I might have done different is syncing after activation and before studying, but I doubt that mattered much. So I will now next I'll see how the sync time is affected tomorrow after a new day of scheduling.

  20. Support Staff 48 Posted by drewmccormack on 28 Mar, 2018 06:59 AM

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    I don’t know if there is too much point trying to find causality in what you do in all of this. Eg. Just because you create a few new notes does not mean that is what is causing a long sync. There are so many other things involved that are far beyond your control.

    I am still perplexed by the long syncs you sometimes see. I don’t know where they come from. A long sync like that would typically be caused by a crash or app shutdown in the background, at a very unlucky moment in the sync. If that is what happens, Ensembles will detect it, and start sync all over again, which would be why you see another full length initial sync. Even the clean up I mentioned should not take an hour.

    The only way to avoid this unlucky shutdown is to ensure the app is synced before it goes to the background, but I think you already do that. Even then, you don’t have complete control over when the syncs happen, so....


  21. 49 Posted by zeppo on 28 Mar, 2018 02:55 PM

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    In this case, I didn't create any new notes or even edit any. I just activated scheduling on notes that were already on board and synced. I just wanted to see if adding to scheduling alone would have an effect. It has seemed like for some reason I would get long syncs not initially after turning on scheduling, but a couple of days later for some reason-- but that is just kind of my off hand impression that this was happening enough for me to make an effort now to test it out. But editing and creating notes has always seemed to have a significant impact on sync time.

    This problem with long syncs goes back to Mental Case when I had an ipod. The only time I didn't have a problem was when you had wifi syncs.

    Is there anything about the hierarchy of my cases and stacks, or the number of them, that could cause the issues? Some notes are in a stack within a case, within a case, within a case.

  22. Support Staff 50 Posted by drewmccormack on 28 Mar, 2018 03:04 PM

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    I don’t think the hierarchy should have any influence. I can’t think of why.

    Mental Case wifi sync was fast, but that was because the iOS app was very primitive, and the data much simpler. The current iOS app is internally as complex as the Mac app.

  23. 51 Posted by zeppo on 28 Mar, 2018 04:39 PM

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    This test set that you use with 10,000 notes, do you have all the notes scheduled and do you run through them every day? Perhaps it is something that manifests with older notes? I have no idea. Is there something to do with cloud storage that is akin to fragmentation problems over time?

    Why not just create a deeper hierarchy of cases within cases and test it out rather than just speculate? I don't get this method of debugging where you only look for problems that you can think of yourself. Have you never found a bug that was there precisely due to the reason that you *didn't* think of it as a potential problem (for otherwise you would have programmed it differently to begin with)?

    I don't know why it would be the case, but is there anything to do with router settings that you count on for the app to work speedily. I don't just use default settings, and tighten up security on it, closing options for things that I never use, like remote desktop.

  24. Support Staff 52 Posted by drewmccormack on 28 Mar, 2018 04:57 PM

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    In terms of testing large libraries, that’s what I did for a week with your data. It is very very time consuming trying to find issues like that, and you may never find them.

    I don’t think a router would cause this issue, because you do see sync progress, it is just slow. A router firewall or something would probably block traffic altogether. I assume you also see this problem when you are out on cellular as well.

    Kind regards,

  25. 53 Posted by zeppo on 29 Mar, 2018 04:11 AM

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    Meanwhile, another long sync on the phone after studying the day's due note. Syncing the phone initially was not long. But then following up with a sync of the mac took about 6 minutes, which is long for the mac app. And then following that up with another sync of the phone is actually still going on as I type, already at 25 minutes and progress bar only a quarter of the way across for what that's worth. Unfortunately, this takes the sync progress past midnight, which means scheduling will attempt to cccur during the sync, which seems to cause more issues with long syncs later on.

    Now the sync has stopped at 30 minutes long, so not the hour I was expecting, but still a long one.
    After the 30 minute sync, I synced the mac app again, and then followed with another phone sync and this was another really long one, that appeared that it was going to be even longer than the first, judging by the time it spent with progress bar showing but a speck of initial change. But I can't say ultimately how long it took because I nodded off for an hour at which time it was complete. But this is consistent with what I've seen where the super long syncs don't show up on the first sync after the changes, but instead after completing the studying of those cards added to scheduling for the second time.

  26. drewmccormack closed this discussion on 01 Apr, 2018 06:35 PM.

  27. zeppo re-opened this discussion on 21 Apr, 2018 04:24 PM

  28. 54 Posted by zeppo on 21 Apr, 2018 04:24 PM

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    After further use, the app has returned to its consistent long syncs of up to 45 minute to over an hour. The initial syncs and scheduling of new due notes for the day on the iphone each morning take about 15-20 minutes most times. Following that with the sync of the imac typically takes a minute. Then following that immediately with another sync of the iphone is what most often takes 45 minutes to an hour to sync. Again, this seems odd to me that I begin the day with both apps having been synced repeatedly the night before to ensure there is nothing left to sync— so you could say they both hold data “A”. Then after opening the iphone for the first time the next day and scheduling new due notes, you could say that it holds data “B”. The only between data A and data B being the scheduling. Then after syncing the iphone, the cloud holds data B as well. Then after syncing the mac, all three (the iphone, the cloud, and the mac) should hold data B. Seems counterintuitive that following with an immediate sync of the iphone to the cloud, which both already hold data B, should be the consistently the longest sync time, 45 minutes to an hour. Not only counterintuitive— ridiculous. But if sync times vary, there is one thing that is consistent, it is this third sync that is always by far the longest.

    Also icloud shut down again on the iphone, but without the popup warning that used to occur letting me know it happened. As I’ve said before this happens about every 6 weeks. Unfortunately, I forgot to clear the mac app data first, so when I turned back on the the iphone sync, it discarded all the studying i had done on the phone for that day and replaced the phone data with mac app data which has not been synced with the iphone since that morning, prior to any studying that day on the iphone. What I’m telling you about this issue is nothing new. I’ve mentioned it before. But I mention it again just to reiterate that— though you think you’ve coded it so that the scheduling data should merge together in this situation, whatever you intended does not happen— period. It doesn’t resolve itself later with repeated syncs. The scheduling data on the iphone is discarded and lost forever. It is not a matter of a “merge” that just has been given the chance to complete. This is something that has happened to me countless times. I’ve been using the app for years, and as I said, when things are going well, this happens about every 6 to 8 weeks. Never in this time, never, has the scheduling data ever, EVER, been merged when reactivating the cloud sync on the phone. So dont worry about how time consuming it is to test and discover that this problem exists, I have already done that for you. Your “merge” is not happening, whatever your intentions were.

    So whatever the variables may be in the sync issues with these apps may be, those two points are consistent and unvarying.

    Anyway, I’m going to do another reset on both devices and see if sync times shorten up again like they did last time. In the past number of weeks since the last did the reset on both, I’ve not edited any notes— I only turned on scheduling for a couple of stacks. This time, since I need to edit some notes, I’ll only edit and not turn on any more scheduling and see if it has the same impact. I know you are not really interested in developing this app for long term users, but I might as well pass on what I know in case you want to keep it in mind in a future rebuild. I think Anki is more long-term heavy user oriented and I probably just need to put some time in with the settings on that app to get more comfortable with it. Later, when I update from iphone 6 to a newer model iphone I’ll see how the sync time improves, but I won’t be updating anytime soon.

  29. drewmccormack closed this discussion on 23 Apr, 2018 06:51 AM.

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